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 Post subject: Harleys and innovation.
PostPosted: Thu Mar 08, 2012 5:56 am 
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By now my opinion on our bikes and innovation is clearly known. We don't have any. But there was an example of this in today's March 8, 2012 Wisconsin State Journal in the 'Autos' section.

The article discussed the new 2013 Hyundai Genesis Coupe. Now, what does a car have to do with our bikes? Everything. Everything that drives me nuts.

The story mentions their lower-trim four-cylinder turbo-charged model. They comment that this engine produces 274 BHP with premium gas and 260 when running on regular. They also contribute some of the efficiency to direct injection.

Clearly, they have included a superior engine management system that allows flexibility relating to compression, timing, valve overlap and the ability to run on regular pump gas. In other words, most of the things we find troubling (heat, exhaust performance, the need for computer downloads, fuel costs) now comes standard on a car from South Korea.

I didn't know about this car until this morning, but I considered it a slap in the face. What do we have to do now, import Korean 'black box CPUs' from a foreign automobile company to get a better Harley? And why does MoCo only update our bikes when the competition begins selling the upgrades?

Many of us believe that MoCo sells stripped down models and then sends us a 'custom catalog' to provide an additional revenue stream. Fair enough. But even if that were true, I don't remember seeing the option of a "Korean black box" amid all of the chrome. It appears foreigners now have to teach us how to build a better domestic bike.


"Imagine a king who fights his own battles. Wouldn't that be a sight?" Brad Pitt as Achilles in the movie 'Troy'


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 Post subject: Re: Harleys and innovation.
PostPosted: Thu Mar 08, 2012 9:29 am 
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Rider
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Joined: Wed Apr 22, 2009 10:35 pm
Posts: 226
Hey Tourist,
I know you are always talking about engine heat. This is a problem with many different brands and models. I was talking with someone from HD and they told me that the next innovation will be to inject the heads with more oil to keep them cooler. They already do this on a sprotster model XR1200X check it out at your dealer. If you look at the two tubes that rise up in between the cylinders on the right side of the bike you will see what I am talking about. He said that they will implement this on all their bikes, but when I couldn't tell you.


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 Post subject: Re: Harleys and innovation.
PostPosted: Thu Mar 08, 2012 12:33 pm 
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Thanks for the update. I did not know about that refinement. I'll look into it further. (I'm thinking about doing a Buell rebuild on my 2010 Sportster 48.)

But that's only one issue. For example, there is a crate motor (JIMS? or S&S?) that has a 120 inch displacement and runs on pump gas. Why does a secondary supplier have engines we don't?

Diesel motors have had direct injection for quite some time. Other Japanese engines have variable valve timing, and even my 1989 Mustang could get 'go fast' chips from Paxton.

The technology has been out there for many years. As for heat, Harley's first 'fix' was a little plastic shield that re-directed engine heat from a guy's crotch. Very technical achievement.

And as I've stated before, the V-Rod is probably Harley's most modern engine. It's ten years old. Now the Koreans are ahead of us.


"Imagine a king who fights his own battles. Wouldn't that be a sight?" Brad Pitt as Achilles in the movie 'Troy'


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 Post subject: Re: Harleys and innovation.
PostPosted: Thu Mar 08, 2012 1:10 pm 
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Joined: Wed Apr 22, 2009 10:35 pm
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The Tourist wrote:
Thanks for the update. I did not know about that refinement. I'll look into it further. (I'm thinking about doing a Buell rebuild on my 2010 Sportster 48.)

But that's only one issue. For example, there is a crate motor (JIMS? or S&S?) that has a 120 inch displacement and runs on pump gas. Why does a secondary supplier have engines we don't?

Diesel motors have had direct injection for quite some time. Other Japanese engines have variable valve timing, and even my 1989 Mustang could get 'go fast' chips from Paxton.

The technology has been out there for many years. As for heat, Harley's first 'fix' was a little plastic shield that re-directed engine heat from a guy's crotch. Very technical achievement.

And as I've stated before, the V-Rod is probably Harley's most modern engine. It's ten years old. Now the Koreans are ahead of us.


If your are running too hot you certainly don't want to go the buell direction. They run ever hotter then your stock sportster. My personal thoughts is leave it alone and ride the snot out of it. At least it will start when you want to go somewhere.


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 Post subject: Re: Harleys and innovation.
PostPosted: Thu Mar 08, 2012 1:59 pm 
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glider wrote:
If your are running too hot you certainly don't want to go the buell direction. They run ever hotter then your stock sportster.


Let me re-phrase that. We're planning on using parts of a Buell, not grafting a Buell motor into a Sportster frame. In fact, I asked the parts guy (and my mechanic briefly) just what options I had to make some gains but still have a streetable Sportster. Ya' know, Spinner defends her honor nicely now, BTW.

The thought here is that 'breathing' might generate some power. I've seen no hard numbers, and with $2K in the balance I'm going to be doing lots of reading.


"Imagine a king who fights his own battles. Wouldn't that be a sight?" Brad Pitt as Achilles in the movie 'Troy'


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 Post subject: Re: Harleys and innovation.
PostPosted: Thu Mar 08, 2012 2:27 pm 
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Joined: Sat Oct 23, 2010 9:51 am
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Not sure if I've posted this yet or not but its so cool I hope you don't mind it being posted twice if thats the case:

https://thekneeslider.com/archives/2011/ ... ds-patent/

glider wrote:
Hey Tourist,
I know you are always talking about engine heat. This is a problem with many different brands and models. I was talking with someone from HD and they told me that the next innovation will be to inject the heads with more oil to keep them cooler. They already do this on a sprotster model XR1200X check it out at your dealer. If you look at the two tubes that rise up in between the cylinders on the right side of the bike you will see what I am talking about. He said that they will implement this on all their bikes, but when I couldn't tell you.


To expect to be perfect is unreasonable, to strive for perfection is reasonable.
2015 Ultra Classic Low.


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 Post subject: Re: Harleys and innovation.
PostPosted: Fri Mar 09, 2012 5:07 am 
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You have to remember that I'm just doing some research now. Spinner is completed for the next riding season, and based on her performance and the new oil cooler she might be fully completed. That Sportster's sole job is to just let me have fun. Last autumn I found out that some Buell parts would fit Sportsters, and contrary to what I had heard, Buell parts were still available.

(I had heard some urban legend that guys had been buying up unsold crated Buells to canabalize the motors.)

Which brings us full circle to MoCo and innovation. What we are discussing is the customer (me) searching out the necessary parts to build a decent bike. It's a condition where customers have to drag the company kicking and sreaming not into the future, but simply into the present. We're handed 70 year old technology, gladly purchase it, and then shrug it off by saying, "Well, that's a Harley for you!"

Can you imagine buying a GoldWing, and asking the saleman what the inlets on the front of the bike are for. Imagine if his answer was, "Well, they run a little hot, but you can buy a radiator from our custom catalog, and with a labor charge, one of our many computer downloads, and a dyno run we think there's a chance you might not scald your testicles. BTW, the shocks suck, too."

I wrote that with a touch of humor. But essentially I had to do that with my Sportster 48.


"Imagine a king who fights his own battles. Wouldn't that be a sight?" Brad Pitt as Achilles in the movie 'Troy'


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 Post subject: Re: Harleys and innovation.
PostPosted: Fri Mar 09, 2012 12:44 pm 
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Road Captian
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Joined: Sat Oct 23, 2010 9:51 am
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Many an old timer love the bike..hate the MOCO.


To expect to be perfect is unreasonable, to strive for perfection is reasonable.
2015 Ultra Classic Low.


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 Post subject: Re: Harleys and innovation.
PostPosted: Fri Mar 09, 2012 1:49 pm 
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Joined: Tue Dec 13, 2011 12:00 pm
Posts: 246
Location: Herrin Illinois
Have you considerd a thundermax with autotune it replaces factory ecm


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 Post subject: Re: Harleys and innovation.
PostPosted: Fri Mar 09, 2012 3:17 pm 
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badinfluence63 wrote:
Many an old timer love the bike..hate the MOCO.


Yeah, and I'm one of them. There are so many good years and fantastic bikes. I'm a sucker for the '65 pan and Betty's vintage, circa '03 to '05. Willie G's first Lowrider shovel showed some forward thinking despite the huge decal on the gas tank. With decent air filtration and a better download I think the current Sportsters show promise.

The idea of the V-Rod shows promise, but the execution is a tad bizarre. And due to the configuration of the engine, the V-Rod is hamstrung by either forward controls or painfully high rear-sets.

Park a current Harley next to a Viper Motorcycle and you'll see how a big twin should be built.


"Imagine a king who fights his own battles. Wouldn't that be a sight?" Brad Pitt as Achilles in the movie 'Troy'


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