(My rebuttal uses the 'editorial 'you,' not meaning you.)

We don't have a 'wide open' forum, but when it comes to members who have proven themselves, who cares?

Here's my point, when you join any forum, bike club or stamp collecting society, you join not only for your personal interest but also to interact with established members. If you become a pain or a disruption, they ask you to leave. Even if you feel their action is draconian, who cares what you think? If you become a jerk, they dump you, period.

A spammer or a troll is not here to be a member. I am a member, however. Over the years I have proven I deserve to wear my colors, so to speak. And while I do not "own" a space here, I expect a full measure of rights and privileges as a member.

So if I trash a spammer or a troll, it's the same stance I take as if a drunk insults my rags in a saloon members frequent. I might not own the tavern, I do not own my colors, but I am a member. It's a duty to protect my club, and it's a privilege to clobber an interloper.

Former lint trap specialist Eddie the rectal anti-flavanoid was a troll from day-one. While he should have been iced faster, like I said, I do not own the forum. As a full member I complained and openly shafted him.

Now, as for disagreeing with a thread stance or rebuttal, that's totally different. A newb or HeadMaster can come in here with guns blazing and disagree with me right off the bat--that's the purpose of a forum! That's not trolling!

And as a full member I am not precluded from stating a position, an opinion or even a prejudice as I do in our lounge section. If you don't like my stuff, you are free to put me on ignore or put wet laundry in the dryer for your mom.

And as for 'messes,' I believe that a singular unified thought that must pass muster by an autocrat moderator is the biggest mess of all. Bikers shouldn't be told what to do, even when typing.

That I do agree with also.

While I'm happy that you do, I'm also gratified to see that Deadeye created a debate that will stimulate discussion. I think his rebuttal is wrong-headed, however.

Point of fact, I've been banned closer to 15 times. As I've stated, a ban on a forum is less important to me than something like spilling my coffee. There are tens of millions of forums, we ain't going to run out of them.

What I disagree with is that participation--either mine or someone else's--either makes or breaks a forum. If you want members you're better off with controversy than by developing a reputation for running off members for simply stating an opinion. Here's the rub.

If you agree that shagging off troublesome members (I'm not talking about trolls here, but legitimate members) should be permitted, than what's to stop a mod for picking Deadeye and not me? I've contributed quite a bit, so far he's not made much impact at all. If there's discord in the forum it makes more sense to ban him.

That's why I'm against chilling debate. It's not my to job to like him, or vice versa. It's not a good policy to use the ban feature to solve transient problems. A year from now he and I could be buddies.

As for my past, I was never really banned from a place I liked. Most times I made a real point to cram as many opposing viewpoints into the forum before the axe fell. In some cases I deliberately tweaked the mod. In several cases I asked to be disconnected to protect my business. Consider my behavior akin to stop going to a restaurant that was slipping in quality and writing the manager a letter before leaving.

For your information, HeadMaster, RK and I have had several PMs on my contribution and conduct. So what? Bikers fight. What do you expect, that we'll take long, warm showers together?

Lets put all forums in context by comparing them to the office of the President of the USA as just a thought, not gospel. When running for the office of the President of the USA donations are made and donations are taken. This is commonly called "special interest" money. What occurs when the individual becomes President he returns the favor in various forms. Usually at the tax payers expense.

Forums are no different. While owner/admins solicit sponsors to help keep the forum running, along with that comes a responsibility of the owner/admin to maintain an atomospere deemed acceptable by said sponsors. You know an atomospere that seems conducive to hawking ones wares. This unfortunately is usually at the expense of the posters, hence at times, pretty unscrupulous and suspect warnings and bans rather than letting a beg to differ moment to go its course. Apparently one of the unspoken things about forums is it is for you but not for your opinion, ultimately.

Add in egoes and human nature being what it is, forums generally speaking are not for the out spoken who don't give 2 shits about being politically correct. Most posters are sheep and happily shepherded. Oh the rabble rousing post generator(Tourist) will be tolerated initially to gain a fan/poster base but the rabble rouser(Tourist)will quickly be the first to go whence the forum is running on its on power.

Until a forum exists that is truly a member run, no admin but voted in panel with term limits, same with mods, forums will always be for profit motivated and for the most part..suck. There is big money in forums much to most peoples surprise.

If you as a poster are okay with all that and enjoy the superficiality that comes with it, more power to you.

For those of us who would prefer it realistic and from the heart all forums fall short. Way short. More like a chest pounding competition where the only tie breaker is the owner/admin instead of who can beste belie his/her opinion. In short..... a dictatorship. And which by the way is a tell tale of the state of the beat of the heart of a lot of bikerdom today. Couple years ago I seen a couple bikers stand down a shit load of cops in Laconia, the cops started it and the bikers weren't taking it. Thats a biker not a sheep.

Oh, I agree with you 100%. My take is that you will never get a "member driven" style forum until the owners and admin realize that this is what the general population wants. But we have to define just who they are first.

And the banner advertisers with a financial interest in making money better recognize it, as well. I might have a loud mouth, but just who actually spent real money on bikes over the years? Me, or a lint trapper custodian?

With a cursory tabulation, an advertiser dismisses "real bikers." They fight, they smell, they cause controversy, they make HeadMaster buy Maalox by the case, and you can't shut them up by saying "naughty boy" in a PM. So what? I'm like most bikers, I have more money invested in buying custom parts for Betty than Betty cost as a new bike.

I am a representative of the money-spending loudmouth reality demographic. Insult me, chill debate, piss me off and I take real money and buy stuff from your competition.

Let me give you a current example. BI63, you ride bikes into the ground. You put "tires" on your grocery list like most people list 'milk.' For the sake of this debate, let's suppose that HeadMaster gets the biggest banner advertiser he ever had from Dunlop Tires. Every day you sign on you see "DUNLOP" in bright day-glo orange.

So one day HeadMaster chews you out, bans you, you go for a ride and notice you need a new tire. I'll bet you buy a Pirelli. In your mind--and probably subliminally--you equate Dunlop as the product your 'enemies' purchase. Heck, I'm a Mustang guy, I wouldn't buy a Camaro if a Sports Illustrated include a naked swimsuit model in every Chevy that rolls of the assembly line. That's the power of advertising.

You want to sell custom motorcycle parts, duh, then cater to real bikers. They might make a mess, but they'll make you rich. Notice the advertising MoCo uses...

I did want to add one thing that might give you insight into my perspective on this topic. I have no bone to pick with HRF, it's just that they are part of this "computer culture."

For example, in this morning's edition of The Wisconsin State Journal there was yet another story on cyber bulling. For me, this is one of the dumbest things I've ever heard. I hate to sound like my father, but "back in my day" a mean girl insulting someone in this manner would have been sliced up like a Christmas goose in a flurry of switchblade knives.

Insults, bans, flaming and other cyber activity I know nothing about mean nothing to me. In fact, I would dearly love for a flamer to get bus money from his mom and meet me at the bike shop professing, "Hi, I'm 'Perverted Knockemstiff' from East T-Shirt New Hampshire and I'm the one who who called you a poo-poo head on HRF."

Now, if you laughed at that, you have now experienced my feelings on computers and computer info. If I break a cell phone, I get a free one from Sprint. I've obtained three of them that way. If I get banned, I sign up somewhere else. If I get flamed I will bet real money I will never see that poser at a bike show, at the clubhouse, in a saloon or buying motorcycle parts.

I am a member of forums because it's fun, and usually in winter. My friends are here. I like to discuss motorcycle modifications. I discuss "biker lounge" topics here just as I would with a barstool under my butt. I like to kill an hour drinking a black-paint strength latte' while my wife putzes before we go to the gym.

But a forum isn't oxygen. I forget my password for some places. I have found my cell phone in the most unlikely places--one time shut off and jammed into my jacket for over 36 hours. I have almost no respect at all for guys who text sitting on a machine at the gym. I'm baffled by guys who roll their bikes to a stop, snap down the kickstand and pull out a cigarette and a cell phone before they greet the world.

There is no doubt in my mind--none--that someday HeadMaster will ban me. In fact, I would disrepect him and myself if that were never to happen.

It's a computer. And I would trade my lap-top for a pristine '65 panhead engine in a heartbeat--fearing my wife's wrath, but never a flamer's.

I actually get what you guys are saying. But unlike fists, knives and guns, wars of words can continue forever.
Question is, how do you suggest unruly members be taken care of. Are we talking of some kind of committee or do you just hope that one stands down?

Good question. As long as the conversation is civil, while oposite, whats the harm in letting it ride? The challenge is who breaks ranks first? If one or both display unruly behavior (swearing,threatening etc..unquestionable blatant and unaccceptable behavior) who would fault a warning in private? Private equals respect. The public flexing of ones dictatorship is weak.

More often than not, bannings are simply a poster has a strong opinion oposite of the admin/mod and their hand selected "crew" and it turns into a cheap shot punk move because the powers that be are out classed. They know it, they cannot stand it so a ban is their only move of choice. A hearty "well done", "good point" or "you got me there" hurts who? Mostly what happens between 2 adversarial debaters is everyone agrees to disagree. Me and Tourist do it all the time. I take no offense and think none the less of him. How boring if everyone were mainlined the same thought process....boring.

People get f'ed up behind a key board. Have these beg to differ moments in public and oh how the mighty fall and fast,lol.

As I have mentioned..forums are a reflection of the shameful level we have reduced ourselves to. I bet all heavy handed Admin/owners have little dicks.

HRF comparitively is some what of a breath of fresh air,not perfect, a work in progress but more palpable then all the ones I have been kicked off of.

So true Eddie!

Why not ask Headmaster for a sub-forum here? Make the invitation according to post count or some other criteria, maybe ask for a group of moderators consisting of our peers to moderate it that can consider any infractions collectively, and dole out any admonishment or banning .
Who knows if it's popular Headmaster may let us run the whole forum some day.